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But on the elementary school teacher level, it's absolutely crucial. Are we giving fathers special training to be fathers, not just paternity leaves that are equal to maternity leaves, but why not give men twice as much money for paternity leaves?

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Make a matching program for men so that a corporation contributes a certain amount and the government contributes an equal amount so that the courses men take on relationships and on family would be tax deductible? And I could go on and on.

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Nobody really believes in equality anyway. For example, if we really believed in equality we'd be paying about two to three times as much for each house as we pay.

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Because if we really believed in equality of outcome we would say that fifty percent of the people building our homes have to be women. You know what it would take cost-wise to get a woman to sacrifice her life to the degree that construction workers do? There are construction workers killed every single workday hour in the United States.

It would take much more excruciating safety standards. Rafters would practically be in glass so the women couldn't get hurt. We would have to pay women so much more for the rest of their life that the cost of housing would soar. And we probably would pay almost twice as much for housing as we currently do, especially for the building of skyscrapers. Steven: Can we promote any men's issues as also women's issues? Warren Farrell: All women's issues are to some degree men's issues and all men's issues are to some degree women's issues because when either sex wins unilaterally both sexes lose.

So when you look at battered women and you don't look at battered men, then you conclude from seeing only the battered women that women are battered by men as an outcome of male privilege and power.

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And you don't see that the person who does the battering is acting out a momentary experience of power to compensate for the powerlessness that they're experiencing. Which is why poor people batter more than well-educated people.

Once I was in a relationship with a female therapist who said, "I know you're not the violent type but every time I get into a relationship with a man I always make it clear at the beginning that no matter how long we've been together, if you ever hit me just once, I will leave that relationship. I'm unlikely to ever hit you. But it saddens me to no end that we could build a thirty-year marriage with lots of love and children, etc. You know that ahead of time. You just have to not do it. So we had a one dollar bet on whether I could get her to do it in 48 hours.

During the first 24 hours I tried once and she saw through it. And in the 46th hour I got unreasonable with her verbally, meaning that she would say something and I would distort what she would say, and she would try to clarify it and I would distort it again and then attack her based on the distortion. I knew which buttons to push by that point in our relationship and she got so caught up it that she whanged out and slapped me and I said, "One dollar please. It was really funny. But she has said to me a few times since that it was one of the best things I ever did for her.

It really helped her in therapy to work much more effectively with the dance of powerlessness that verbal battery can create that makes physical battery a much more likely outcome. Steven: Let's talk about your books. Your first book was profeminist but didn't speak to men's issues as such.

Will your next book continue this progression of stepping out further on behalf of men? Warren Farrell: It will continue that, yes, and it will take the seven issues that are the most misunderstood, the most believed, that are causing the most damage, like the belief that men earn more money than women do for the same work, the belief that men batter women more than women batter men, and basically leave the reader who reads them unable to argue against the facts. Steven: A lot of men in the men's movement feel there's grounds for great optimism that real change is coming.

More and more men and women seem to be recoiling from the greatest excesses of feminism in the 70's and 80's. Yet the pace of change can seem so glacial sometimes. What are your thoughts about how quickly we can hope to start moving toward true equality? Warren Farrell: A very long time, because if you were to ask the question, can we hope for men to change as quickly and make as much progress in the next twenty-five years as women did in the last twenty-five years, the answer is no.

And the reason is that women complaining is not an evolutionary change. Men complaining is an evolutionary change. Women asking for men to protect them and therefore for the government to become the substitute husband when women don't get the protection of men is evolutionarily very natural. Men saying, "I need protection, I need help, please help me," is not natural. Warren Farrell: Yes.

The Myth of Male Power dealt much more with the political issues, the legal issues, sexual harassment, date rape, women who kill, and those issues were very much more interfaced with the agendas of feminism. Steven: Could you tell us a little bit about that? Warren Farrell: With The Myth of Male Power, NOW and the feminist men like Michael Kimmel called up to TV shows in the United States and Canada and from what I heard from producers that leaked this to me, said things like, "Warren Farrell recommends rape and incest and he will set feminism back twenty years and if you produce a show with him, don't expect us to be recommending books from feminists in the future to you.

I did two articles that were accepted for Modern Maturity, one of the largest circulation magazines in the US. After the articles were accepted, edited and paid for, one feminist researcher objected to them and got Modern Maturity to drop both articles. And regarding the places like the New York Times in which I had published every single thing I had written when I was a feminist, since I have questioned feminism nothing I have written has been published.

When I was doing the Donahue Show as a feminist, I was on seven times. I was on once where I deviated from the feminist position and I was never invited back. Steven: What evidence did they have that supposedly you were promoting incest or rape? Was there any evidence of that? Warren Farrell: None whatsoever except that I mentioned both words. The incest thing was very ridiculous because I just made an analogy about workplace sex being incestuous. I said that when colleagues in the same company have sex together, it was like people in the same family having sex together.

And they took that and said I was recommending incest. It really shocked me that the producers didn't read for themselves what was being said.

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And with the rape, I was showing why the rape statistics are exaggerated, and saying that date rape was much more complex than the way feminists had portrayed it, as men oppressing women. Steven: It seems that the normal collegial intellectual debate parameters are completely outlawed with certain feminist ideas.

Warren Farrell: Yes, absolutely. Steven: I've often thought that the men's movement ought to be entitled to the same sort of latitude a lot of us have given the women's movement, in other words, we ought to have a right to have our Mary Dalys and Andrea Dworkins who go overboard and create space for the Gloria Steinems and Betty Friedans. If you had to place yourself somewhere on the spectrum as a men's writer and activist, where do you see yourself? Warren Farrell: Let me add a couple of things to those descriptions of women. She much more identifies with that than with the camp of Betty Friedan.

Gloria Steinem is very anti-male in her vocabulary even though she's a wonderful human being. The opposite is true of Betty Friedan, who's a terrible human being but is a very thoughtful person who understands that men have issues of transition as well.

And her significance is quite great in the sense that she is the person that shot Andy Warhol and she is the person who is now having biographies made of her and being celebrated. For the film biography of Andy Warhol, she was interviewed as one of the experts ON Andy Warhol after having shot him and ended his effective life. So this is the celebration of a male killer. Because it wasn't just Andy Warhol; she tried to kill a couple of other men as well.